This time few quick propositions :P (fast changes)

Newbie Joined: Apr 12, 2011 Posts: 18

Well this time I will propose few very simple changes :D

First of Shadow Demons - I think removing the hell ball would be great for the server's lag prevention when five of those are launched at the same time my net and laptop goes highwire XD (could give them greater ruins instead but fewer since it's beyond reduction spell)

I think it's just a matter of modyfing the template since the triggers spawn the creatures.

Now to Greater Ruin:

It deals 35d6 damage (it seems much) but then again on average it's 105 dmg (ok unreductable)

But the DC for this spell sucks and it's against fort so it makes 53 dmg ! that is less than half of maxed out gis which deals 120.

Ok the spell does not care for sr and mantles and all that but it's also a one time use.

I think it would be fair and easy to put 5 dmg per caster level onto it so it scores 200 dmg at level 40 pure sorc or wiz with throwing away the fort save. A solid dmg that you know it will do no matter what (and since most people put other classes to their sorc or wiz) it goes down to solid 150 dmg at level 30 for example (making it usefull somewhat)

So 5 dmg per caster level no DC save at all = a feat to have and easy to modify

Harm:

Lets be honest it is the most single powerfull spell that cleric has and it's just unfair in terms of use in both cvc and cvm.

It is a % wise spell against enemy hp so my proposal is to make it the following.

it deals 1% per cleric/druid level + 10% base so at level 40 it will take 50% of someones life away but it only takes the current hp away so it will never be a spell to kill someone.

So against a 40 lvl cleric (pure)
1 hit you have 50% of your max life second hit you have 25% and so on.

Against a 30 lvl cleric it would take away 40% of someones current hp.

Or it could be done in terms of 1.5% per cleric level - this would make taking more cleric levels worth while even more so at level 40 it would be 60% while on level 30 - 45% of the current hp.

Hell ball:

Double the dmg :D ! the spells looks like atomic blast but does litte but then again take away the kd since it trips everyone including yourself if you are not immune to it :D.

Greater Sanctuary:

Right now the spell is rather poor the DC often fails even against enemies that are not made to have large will save. However if there was a timer on it just like in case of time stop and duration would be cut by half it could give some clerics time to buff up a small bit.

Or take the save at all and cut the time it's active by half and give -30 attack penalty 30% spell failure while under it (to stop spamming it for melee attacks or harm or other aggresive spells)

Or add a solid extra +10 to the will save making at least the people with low will save to have difficulties.

Power Word Kill:

Move the instant kill if the enemy has 100 hp left to at least 120 hp + 2 for each caster level (max 200 hp at level 40) the 100 hp left is easily taken down by other spells. And this should relate to all creatures in the field not as it is now that it instantly kills few creatures up to 20 hp. Besides it still takes sr and protection spells into consideration.

Wail of the banshee:

Could be good to add some sonic dmg from the spell not too much since the radius is huge but 1 per caster level + 4d6 would do fine I guess to max 40 + 4d6 no save since failed save means death anyway. The spell is an instant kill one but it's rather useless against stronger enemies so making it a usefull tool to fight mobs would be good. So the dmg range would be from 44 to 64 from sonic.

Newbie Joined: Apr 24, 2011 Posts: 31

I guess from playing cleric on this server, harm is the only sure thing he has with his lack of attacks and defense. Most of the AB spells barely last long enought to endure combat. A pure cleric wont get the weapons or ab to last in combat. I could see reducing Harm if the caps of Destruction and earthquake were increased, and we increased the damage on slay living, fire storm and hammer of the gods and storm of vengeance (a very weak 9th level spell). Unless your fighting undead, you dont have a lot of attck spells to rely on.

Along the same lines as you put in for wail of the banshee Implosion and Energy drain should also do damage say 1d4 per level if the save is failed.

Newbie Joined: Apr 12, 2011 Posts: 18

Storm of vengance is bit weak but not because it's weak but the fact many people have elemental resistance, mind protection and good saves. Storm of vengance deals 3d6 per round from acid and 6d6 from electicity if one fails the reflex save plus it can stunn you (but here nearly everyone has mind protection). I guess it could be done that the acid dmg could be moved to 1/2 of caster level +2d4 while the electic to solid 1 electical dmg per cleric level +3d6 for some variance (so a 40 level cleric/druid would deal max of 28 acid dmg and 58 electic dmg to all who fail save per round). However in this case I propose to cut down it's Duration from 10 to 8 rounds.

Regarding Imposion well this spell is a 9th level and has additional +3 bonus to DC but I guess it would not be bad to give it some dmg especially since the area of effect is not as great but I guess that causing for example 1 blunt dmg per cleric level +5d6 (it is crushing you) could make it worth while and give a 45-70 dmg range for a 40 level cleric.

Improving the Greater Sancturary would already help the clerics a lot since they would have time to buff up slightly - you must take into account that clerics have such feats as divine shield and might (giving charisma bonus to AC and attack) so it does help a lot and only requires 13 char, 13 str and power attack. In fact mixing cleric with paladin or bg would make going into maxing the 2 skills Wisdom, Charisma a good way to have a descent build with nice saves and AC.

However with the Greater Sanctuary the case is similar as with unmodified Time stop if it was the way it used to be it just gives too much spamming options that would beat up any non-arcane char. I guess that making it the way it used to be but putting a time controll onto it and cutting duration time by half would just give a cleric a chance to buff up. However in this case the harm must be cut down otherwise sanctuary harm combo is just too much.

Clerics are mostly a very strong and required support char, however with the healing potions it's not that much of a case so I do understand the point but then again not having the potions would mean it would be near impossible to go anywhere without a cleric and those are not allways around so making them stronger would not be a bad alternative.

You must also realize that you have the Word of Faith spell that blinds anyone in radius without any save at all, ignoring clarity only spell mantless and sr can protect. This spell is in fact too strong for my taste how about adding the DC onto it but giving something exta like a one time -1 to ab, AC and saves reduction to enemy for every 10 cleric levels (so at level 40 a - 4 reductions - would give cleric once more a nice supporting role and very deadly with a bard on the team to push those even lower)

Destruction is pretty much the cleric's derivative of finger of death and it deal unreductable dmg but the spell is weaker from the finger of death. I think making it 3d6 + 1 divine dmg per cleric level would not hurt anyone. So it's dmg range would not go from 10-60 but from 43-58 in case of 40 level cleric.

Clerics have also one very strong side to them on DI with the true seeing not being the true seeing anymore it is the only class that by stats can reach a very very high spot/listening checks.

Energy drain is just a silly spell to be honest and it is a very irritating one (and only that <_<) since it does not kill your enemy it only makes him weaker if you break the fort save (and it's soo irritating to your enemy I think he would want to die instead) - how about we just make it a better version of the finger of death dealing 2 neg energy dmg per caster level +4d6 and death on failed fort save (better DC though since it's level 9 spell not 7 so it has extra +2 to DC) with dmg range from 89 to 104 on a level 40 arcane/cleric toon. Still the shadow shield will protect you so the dmg is not soo over the top here.

Energy drain is also very prone to abuse by summoning summons and adding their hp to yours.

It would seem it would be better than proposed changed Implosion (that would deal 45-70 dmg) but one must remember - Implosion has a natural +3 DC bonus while being a level 9 spell anyway and the shadow rune would not protect you from the dmg. Besides Implosion is also an area effect. Only sr and magic mantles would protect you.

Hammer of Gods well is not soo bad it's an area spell with huge radius and it deals 5d8 of unreductable dmg with will save against being dazed :) Will Save makes any spell good. But I guess it could be done into 1/2 devine dmg per cleric level +4d6 making at least the lower boundary of dmg starting from 24 not 5 and ending at 44 instead of 40 for a 40 lvl cleric.
Mind this that this spell may become weaker in fact if you go for example for 20 cleric levels dealing higher lower score of 14 but lower higher score of 34.

Good thing with spells is that they can be modified easily and fast in case something would turn out too strong so I guess it's not very big thing to experiment a bit. I just find that right now there are very few spells that acctualy are worth something in DI realms and making others go somewhat hand to hand with those would not make anyone much stronger but at least there would be a greater scope of magics used in combat.

Newbie Joined: Mar 05, 2010 Posts: 58

A lot (if not, all) of the spells here have already been modified by adding changes to the DC of spells from an epic level caster.

It is not Word of Faith that is blinding you (if you are referring to the Glacial healers), but Mass Blindness/Deafness (a wizard spell).
Although Word of Faith can blind you, but I've tried to cast it here and it felt completely nerfed as it failed on everything I was using it against, but the creatures I was fighting may have had some Spell Resistance on them.

Harm requires a touch attack first, so there is already a chance that it will miss. As touch attacks rely on BAB (not buffed) + STR + epic prowess + (a few other things that only a druid/monk/creature has access to).
Even though Harm does bypass armour and shield, it does not bypass deflection bonuses (such as from cloaks or the high end helm) or dodge bonuses. Against dex based characters, or creatures of levels 40+ I found this spell to only hit under 50% of the time.

In regards to clerics having a high spot/listen I would say that a Bard has a pretty high listen score as well (clairaudience + amplify + bardsong can easily add over 40 to listen, and 20 to spot) , which when taking into consideration that there are not as many spells to boost MS as there are to boost Hide.

Well, lunch-break is over, I gotta go, might have another look at this when I get home.

Newbie Joined: Apr 12, 2011 Posts: 18

I am pretty sure it's the Word of Faith that blinds because in case of Val for example his standart will save is 40 + he has 59 spellcraft (+11 to saves for arcane spells) I think DC wise those mobs would not reach as high in terms of their spell so I think it's the Word of Faith and the problem with players using it on mobs is that you never trully know did it work it's mostly effective against range type monsters :D.

Moose think also about that the Clerics are the most ab pushing up boost class in terms of all their spells - especially is they have war domain to back it up, besides if harm is casted at the very start of the fight and you catch opponent flat footed you have nearly 100% chance to make it go through. I know that at least in unmodified NWN I managed to nearly allways go above the ab add on limit with cleric boosts and a good enough weapon. My chart was showing greater attack than the logs would.

And here is some info on touch attacks from NWNWiki

Quote:

A touch attack denies the defender their armor and shield AC (base and bonus), as well as their natural armor bonus to AC. All other armor class modifiers, such as the size modifier, dexterity modifier, and deflection/dodge bonus (if any) apply normally. The attacker's touch attack bonus is as follows.

Melee:
BAB + strength modifier (only if positive) + nature sense + epic prowess (unless a ranged weapon is equipped) + unarmed weapon focus feats (if unarmed or using a creature weapon) + effects
Ranged:
BAB + dexterity modifier + weapon attack bonus + effects
As usual, a natural roll of 20 (before adding the attack bonus) is automatically a hit, and a natural 1 is automatically a miss. Critical hits are only threatened on a natural 20, and the confirmation roll is always the same as the attack roll (i.e. the confirmation roll is always a natural 20).

Quote:

A touch attack can catch a target flat-footed further negating its dodge and dexterity (if unsecured) AC.

source: http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Touch_attack

I just think that even for a touch attack (and clerics do not have the same BAB as for example arcane users but higher) this spell deals way too much for it's level and should rather be level based for some realizm it's just too prone for spamming right now.

However such change should only be done if other spells and abilities of cleric are improved on DI. Because unlike the mages with their time stop the cleric is often unable to do much with spells and boosts to get ready :D.

Besides as I said changing spells is rather a quick and easy thing to do in scripts so it's not like such changes would be hard to fix if suddenly found not good. It's all about field tests and even those will not show everything - also think about how the extra +20 levels in LL did increased the saves and most importantly hp of toons while the dmg spells cause remained the same. (However spells that kill you or put you on the brink of death from start without a chance for a DC throw are by my taste bit too uneven).